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2. Ranked at 9, there are eight undefeated teams ahead of the Spartans. In the next 11 weeks (10 games for MSU) plus the week of conference championships, five of those teams need to lose. That WILL happen, likely 6 or 7 of them will lose - it has happened every year (and many of those teams play each other).
3. Although not absolutely required, it will help if Oregon remains undefeated throughout the season.
If those three things happen, the committee will not be able to keep the Spartans out. The talk will be that the lone Spartans loss came on the road, early in the season, against the #1/#2 ranked team. The only one of those three keys to MSU has any control over is #1 - winning out. #2 is basically done and #3 may not be entirely necessary.
The media and fans who say the Big Ten is out of the final four race are reactionary and not using their brain (most are simply parroting what they have heard others say/write). Even Nebraska or Penn State will get in if they win out (which means the Spartans miss on item #1 above).
That season ending game at Penn State could be huge. Have you seen their schedule?
Reply to: @return2glory | SpartanResource.com I think you need to take into account that the selection committee is not only going to add a lot of the human element to the 4 teams that are in but additionally it is a national committee and not regional.
The human element is going to bring perception into the equation. While some love to hate, the SEC is viewed as the cream of the power conferences. Pac 12 is a monster this year too. The Big 12 is also the darling of college football and even in down years seems to get the benefit of the doubt. I would not be shocked if a one loss champ out of any of those conferences would get the nod over MSU at 12-1. The debate always comes down to the ACC and the B1G when it comes to which is the worst of the Power 5. The B1G got some credibility back this past weekend but the fact is do you think the committee would take a one loss FSU or a one loss MSU if the other 3 spots are taken?
The other factor that most folks are forgetting is the wild card teams. BYU and Marshall are both undefeated and have solid teams. Marshall has the mighty C-USA in front of them. And BYU's toughest contest is a road trip to Boise. The playoff was created specifically for those types of teams. The ones that everyone says they are cute stories with their undefeated season but they are not who deserves a shot at the championship. And then Boise beats Oklahoma or Utah takes one from Bama and the "What ifs.." pop up. I find it hard to believe that the selection committee would not give an undefeated team, regardless of who they are or who their scheduled against, a shot at the playoff.
One final point, the committee is human the same way the voting in the polls is humanized. In 2006, there was a magical vote and U of M fell from #2 to #3 because the voters didn't want a rematch. That reasoning went out the window a couple of years back when it was the SEC. If Oregon goes undefeated, I guarantee the fact that MSU played them and lost already will come across the debate. While I can see the argument that MSU's only loss was the the #1/#2 team in the country, you have to think about the rematch element. A one loss MSU team along with a one loss Big 12 and one loss SEC team are on the table for the last 2 spots, I can see someone saying "Well MSU technically already had their shot when they played Oregon. Do we want a rematch or do we want to see Oregon play this SEC team or Big 12 team?"
Reply to: @ATownAndDown - @TheATownAndDown @return2glory | SpartanResource.com
Well, I hope we get an opportunity to see if I'm right. I believe that if the three things I outlined happen, the committee will have a difficult time keeping the Spartans out - even more so if they pull the double digit margin of victory in every game trick like they did last year.
After MSU wins 12 consecutive games, including the Big Ten CG (in this scenario), that early loss will mean far less then than it does now. All but one or two teams will have a more recent loss. The "human element" could easily say, "Well if MSU played anyone but Oregon away from home, they very well could have won and they would be in. Or for that matter, since they have improved so much, as Dantonio teams seem to do, they could probably win that game if it were played today. I'd like to see them prove it, and besides, we don't want to penalize tough scheduling quite so harshly. I vote MSU."
I'm not saying your view is wrong A-Town - I think you could be right on those points and the Spartans still get in based on what I have outlined.
They could actually be ranked #2 after the final week. They started at #5 and lost an away game to undefeated (in our scenario of the 3 requirements) Oregon team and proceeded to win 12 games in a row with an offense and defense rated near the top in the country in many major categories (a natural occurrence of winning 13 games - especially with this year's offense). Knock out a #2 rated team? Committee members may think the things you bring up A-Town, but in the end they have to consider what is just.
Somebody is going to feel screwed, and in this scenario, I don't see it being the team on a 12 game roll that is fun to watch while on national and regional TV a lot. There may actually be a lot more intrigue with a rematch under this scenario. It's going to feel like a different season in the end if MSU runs the table - not just to us, but nationally.
-R2G
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ATownAndDown - @TheATownAndDown
I know I don't follow U of M that closely but weren't the coaches really high on what that freshman QB they had come was doing. Maybe Hoke needs to go all in and see if that guy is the answer. I mean the defense has been doing a pretty darn good job and the points seems to be coming from turnovers. If I am a coach, I am doing everything I can to show signs that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If you get the freshman QB to look decent in a pro-style system and the defense continues to look decent, maybe there is something to show that you are building something.
Unfortunately Hoke is 4 years in and you would think he would have guys in place to be competing at a high level by now. Its not great for the conference. I mean don't get me wrong: I want MSU to beat U of M every year but the B1G is better when U of M is ranked. I would prefer to beat a 7-0 U of M team then 5-2. Hope that if Hoke goes they put someone in there that doesn't take 2-3 years to get the program back. B1G is behind the 8-ball enough.
return2glory | SpartanResource.com
I'm of the opinion of 'let them drown". Other Big Ten schools ranked highly and beating major out of conference opponents is preferable to giving Ann Arbor any hope at all. I'd love to see less than 50K in attendance in the Pig House. I'd love to be able view them as "a minor irritation". Remember being called that? They (coaches and administrators included) can't even call another conference institution by their correct name! Success for anyone but them. It's a rivalry. There is supposed to disdain. It is part of what makes it fun. Why would any team want success for a rival? Do Auburn fans want Alabama to remain great? Once you've got your foot on their throat, you don't let up. They never did when we were gasping for air. I'd love to see Purdue, Indiana and Rutgers out-recruit them for some big time players. Hey, you can say it will never happen, but we never thought this 7-year dismal run in Ann Arbor would happen and here we are - it's reality. Let's enjoy seeing how bad it can get!
ATownAndDown - @TheATownAndDown
While I agree with you to the extent that the B1G does not revolve around U of M, I do have to disagree with you that the B1G can be just as good with a ranked IU team.
As much as some MSU fans want to ignore it, U of M is a brand. You can debate history, last 50 years, last 10 years, or whatever. There is a reason why when a U of M team goes 5-0 the national media ranks them and heads start to turn. There is a reason why winged helmets and the block M are recognized in California, Texas, Florida as it is in Michigan. There is a reason why ESPN has a CFB Nation page for U of M. They are a team like Nebraska, like PSU, and like OSU that extend in the minds of college football fans across the country.
A relevant U of M team is going to carry more weight. Why did beating OSU in the B1G Championship Game turn so many heads? Would it have been the same if it was even Wisconsin? I doubt it. Look at how we view other conferences. How does the Big 12 look without Texas? Does Baylor fill that hole of perception in the minds of the masses like Longhorns Nation would if it was doing the same thing? That is the same way that the rest of the college football world looks at the B1G. U of M, PSU and Nebraska being relevant teams matters. Nebraska is at least ranked. PSU has an excuse and appears on the mend. U of M though...?
Look I am with you in hating the Michigan Man rhetoric about what his team did a million years ago. But the fact is Wisconsin has been a solid program for years and they still don't get the respect that U of M does on a national level. Think if MSU played this years schedule and beat a top-10 ranked Nebraska, beat a 7-0 ranked U of M, beat a ranked OSU even without Miller, beat a ranked PSU, and then went to the B1G Championship and beat a one or two loss Wisconsin. Anyone think that run doesn't turn the selection committees heads. You know all those games are national games that are getting talked about on the national sports talk for a week in advance. That is what the conference needs because that is what the SEC has had for years now.
return2glory | SpartanResource.com
I'm not saying you are wrong about any of it. I get the logic. For me, the minor benefit it gives the conference (and indirectly MSU), I'm not into the idea of Michigan being a power. Aside from my general dislike for them, they are our primary recruiting and media competitor. Their fans are also in our face exaggerating both past and current success (when they have it). If they were located in another state, I might be able to swallow the, "it's better for MSU when Ann Arbor has a good football team". But in reality, it just aint so - emotionally or logistically - at least not for MSU. MSU, Ohio State, and Notre Dame are the primary benefactors of Ann Arbor sucking. I care most about my team. Let them suck.
ATownAndDown - @TheATownAndDown
Go look at MSU's recruiting class. Only 4 of 13 are from in the state. If you ask me, MSU appears to be moving into a new class of recruiting that extends beyond the "backyard"
As far as media, all of that revenue is split among the conference. Gone are the days of local media contracts. All the significant money comes from the major networks to the conference as a whole and is split. That is why once the B1G Network boosted the B1G's revenue you started to see all the other conferences get their own networks. Its the whole union vs. individual worker concept.
Look I like to have a good laugh at all the folks that pointed out MSU's warts and said "That doesn't happen at Michigan because we are Michigan" and now getting to see them grow the same warts. But remember when the perception thing bit U of M in the butt in 2006. We laughed then too. Do you think we are immune from that? Where is the perception of the B1G since 2006?
I have pointed it out before. 4 spaces isn't a lot. There are 5 power conferences so someone isn't dancing. There are any number of situations were you can see 2 conferences getting left out. IMO I think there is going to come a day where MSU is going to need to rely on the strength of the conference. Do I want MSU to have beaten a U of M team that is 10-2 or a U of M team that is 6-6 when that day comes? I know my answer doesn't involve the term "humble pie" in it
return2glory | SpartanResource.com
A-Town - In response to your four points...
Recruits - You don't look at players we got, you look at players we wanted and didn't get. Many are UM's roster and verbal commitment list. UM sucking for several more years can change that.
Media - I'm just talking publicity. When the teams are equal, Ann Arbor gets disproportionate attention. If they suck, we don't have to deal with it.
2006 - Big Ten perception began decline. MSU gained respect and chUMps began their era of sucking. I'll take that deal.
4 spaces for power 5 plus one undefeated non-power: See the original three keys to a one loss Spartan team (from a "weak" Big Ten) getting into the football playoffs.
I think [you] are looking at this from an emotional point of view and not one of logic and reasoning.
R2G you are talking about MSU not being able to get recruits or not getting balanced media coverage unless U of M sucks. From a personal standpoint, I would rather earn those things than have them given to me because the other guy is an also ran. But I think this shows exactly what I have been saying too: U of M has been average for how long now and yet they still carry the weight that they do. You don't just find a program like that laying around. Do you think that recruits and media are going to starting paying more attention to an MSU team that goes 4 for 5 in this era or if that run came against U of M teams that were on par with those they fielded in the 70's. If you want people to think you are the best, you need to beat the best.
I think if you look at ND, you can get a good idea that U of M isn't going to just fade away. ND was mediocre from the mid-90's until 2012. It was nearly 2 decades of new coaches and reliving the good ol' days. Heck even before 2012 they were an 8-5 team. Even that 2012 team did look like it belonged on the field with Bama. Last year they were a 9 win team and opened ranked 17th this year. After "big" wins against Rice, U of M and Purdue they are now a top-10 team and some folks are rumbling about a national championship birth. Why is that?
The media and the state of college football doesn't allow programs to fade. Its been nearly a decade since U of M was relevant and you still have national radio shows and television commentators discussing what is going on in Ann Arbor and what it means for the future of that program. It isn't going to take a lot for the bus to magically get back on the road. Let's say that U of M endures another coach that averaged 7-8 wins and gets canned. Its been nearly 2 decades and new coach rolls into Ann Arbor and U of M opens 8-0. How mad are you going to be that all these media outlets and fans start to boast about a championship run? Its going to happen. The same way it happens for Florida. The same way it happens for ND. The same way it will happen for Texas. Heck look how hard they are trying to push USC like its a top-10 program again.
In my opinion its a waste to sit here and hope that U of M turns into Indiana. I would rather focus on my squad getting better and hope that U of M comes back and we can dash championship dreams as opposed to beating a dead horse. Its better for the perception of MSU and that is all I care about. Our program can't control the perception of any other program. Give me 15 undefeated teams that MSU beats every time. Then tell me that MSU isn't the best team in the land.
A-Town, Corrections to your twisting of my points to help make your argument:
I said that I didn't disagree with your points. I also said I don't care that UM sticks. If MSU keeps winning, we don't need UM to be any better than they are now. Basically, I don't see any need to want UM to be elite if MSU is elite without them.
I didn't say (paraphrased) "no success for MSU unless UM sucks". I said we can win more recruiting battles against them when they suck.
I want to beat the best. I just don't care that UM is not among the best. I actually enjoy it when they suck.
I didn't agree or disagree with your premise that it would be even better if MSU were a top five program while UM was also good. I basically said that I don't want them to be good and I just prefer them to be lousy and MSU stay great. If MSU is great, it is not important for UM to return to the days of six total program Rose Bowl victories. I don't even want them to get a sniff.
I know Ann Arbor will not fade away. I didn't say they would. I know they will be elite again someday. That day will come sooner than I want. I prefer to not root for it to happen as earlier than it has to. I prefer to root for whoever is playing Ann Arbor this week and next week and forever.
I'm not mad about about UM's moles in the media. I just enjoy that they are powerless to help them win games. I enjoy that Minnesota is the biggest game their schedule right now. I just prefer they suck for so long that some of the illusion and mystique wears off and fades away. I'm not saying it will happen, but I see no need to root for them to regain prominence.
To me it's a waste of time to hope UM gets better. I find it enjoyable that their "championship hopes" are dashed before the conference schedule even begins. I am way more concerned about my favorite team. I don't see any need to root for our arrogant rivals who project a false image about what Michigan really is. I'm not suggesting we can control perceptions about other programs. I'll take the 15 undefeated seasons for MSU as you suggested. If UM were to miss a bowl game for those 15 years it would be even better.
It's simple. You want them to be better because you think it somehow benefits MSU. I want them to suck because if MSU keeps winning, we won't need them for anything.
[I love seeing articles about the fall-out in Ann Arbor like THIS.]
Insert From "SpartanMan82"
I am very entertained by the psychodrama that is now Michigan Football. I have been enjoying all of the bridge-jumping by chUMps of all shapes and sizes the past few weeks, especially since the Utah game. It has been a very pleasant experience to watch them flounder about aimlessly this season, thrashing each other more than they have done to their opponents.
The only complaint I have is all this stuff that the Mainstream Michigan Media Machine (M-4) is trying to pump out about the B1G Conference "needing UM to do well". Why not Illinois, the home of Red Grange? Why not Purdue, the former cradle-of-quarterbacks? Why not Minnesota, the thundering herd of the 1930's and 1940's? What about Nebraska, one of the historically greatest programs in college football history? Why is it that the B1G Conference does not seem to need those schools to do well?
Only Michigan counts to the M-4. The claims that the conference "needs them" are pure bunk written by chUMps and the folks who are paid by them to push their propaganda.
A-Town is certainly right that on a national perspective, the conference would benefit from UM avoiding their own self-immolation. But that's only because people have been trained to expect to see them succeed. People can be re-trained. Any other conference program that rises to the top - - - including MSU - - - will eventually be noticed by fans and recognized by the sports media as relevant.
I always remember that George Perles said "they all count one". That means losses as well as wins. Those chUMps only have two losses right now, and I'm the guy pointing out they could still go 10-2. But they are peeing all over themselves right now, and it's a great sight to see!
_____________________________________
Other Comments in the thread:
GruffSpartyisBestSparty
I would rather see a ranked IU than UM. Heck any team for that matter. The [Big Ten] does not revolve around um no matter what their history is, or what their fans desire. The [Big Ten] needs stronger teams, but they DON'T have to be UM. Now is it as fun beating up a team like UM when they appear to be whimpering on the ground? Not really...but the narrative the [Big Ten] is hinging on UM is a joke. Far more teams need to step up than just them.
Boognish Rising
Count me in on the "let 'em drown" side of this argument.
Army. Pittsburgh. Minnesota. Cal. What do these teams have in common? If you go back far enough, each were once college football powers -winning multiple national titles. Eventually, they faded, and programs such as UM, ND, OSU, and Bama stepped up. To date they still play second fiddle to other programs.
The point is that times change - football programs change - and some never regain the success they once enjoyed, allowing a new guard to take over. I don't see any reason why that can't happen at Michigan. People just assume that the day will come when they will again be relevant, because, hey, they ARE Michigan after all……. right?
The mediocrity has already spanned close to a decade. Another 5 years of mediocrity may very well spell the death of the UM "Brand", as the future players of tomorrow will have grown up knowing UM as nothing other than a middle of the pack B1G team.
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Card and letters are flowing in to commemorate the farewell tour of Michigan Football Coach Brady Hoke. (That's probably the last time we type those five words in that order.) We put out the call for well-wishers as The Brady Bunch says "Goodbye, Ann Arbor".
First up is "return2glory", originator of this dual-purpose web site. Here is his sendoff to the donut-lover:
I really appreciated the excitement you created with your highly rated recruiting classes, and the way you could never build on their natural ability. This created a build-up of expectations and excitement, followed by a sharp letdown due to execution errors. Excellent combination!
I also thank you for bringing David Brandon to experience the excitement the crowd and the Izzone creates at the Breslin Center. It was great to have you and him both together to watch Spartan Basketball in person. You picked a great game to attend, as the Spartans handed the "We On" UM men's basketball team a lesson in competitive execution. No other UM football coach has ever come to a home MSU basketball game, so we will always remember you did that.
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Our weekly feature on MSU Football brings diverse responses to a variety of questions surrounding the Spartans program. Even as the team appears to be coming together, our panelists present unique opinions about many facets of Spartan football.
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Below are this week's questions. Reader comments are welcome by clicking the link at the bottom of the post.
Is the MSU offense a problem or a concern any longer? Why or why not?
Should a second Spartans quarterback have seen playing time against Indiana?
Did you observe any interesting developments, plays or story-lines from Saturday's game that may have gone largely unnoticed or lacked meaningful media focus?
Should MSU be ranked in the Top 25?
What do you think will happen when Indiana gets a shot at Michigan next weekend?
-------------------------------
1. Is the MSU offense a problem or a concern any longer? Why or why not?
ATownAndDown(Follow him on M-Live)
We can't ignore what happened 3 weeks ago. I am right there with everyone that the offense has made some nice improvements over the past few weeks and there were signs of hope against ND even. But Cook isn't magically Kirk Cousins accurate, the WR's still have some hold your breath moments and the RB's are not exactly Ringer and Caulcrick either. I know we don't need a ton of offense to win football games but there are going to be games we need the offense to perform in tight competition in order to win. Can they do that? In 2011 we had an offense that could pick up the slack when needed. I don't just want to win a some games, I want a championship and that is going to mean more than just average output when we need something extra.
SpartanMan82 (See all of his posts here)
The Offense is no longer a major problem, it's just not a team strength. Cook has established himself at Quarterback, we now have a true running-back, and several receivers have made great catches the past few weeks. Even the Tight End came into play. The O-Line is a net positive, especially with pass protection.
This team will be defined by it's Defense, but the Offense is now part of the playing group.
MSUSpartan76 (Follow him on M-Live)
A problem? No. A concern? Always. We have seen improvements but we have also seen mistakes. As the season progresses, it will be tougher to win and the offense can not have any kind of regression if MSU wants to have a successful season. Across the board we have seen improvements and we are delighted with the progress but there still is a lot to do and there is a high ceiling for this team. There was a dropped pass. There were a couple of badly inaccurate throws. There needs to be more yards gained on the ground. There were mistakes on offense that could cost the team badly in future games especially since we can anticipate a defensive letdown here and there. There is a lot of youth. The biggest concern is that they get cocky.
YES - The question about the offense has changed. It was, "Will this offense ever be be functional?" The team has given us a resounding "Yes". The question now is, "Can this offense be functional against a top notch defense?" - We likely won't be able to get a "yes" to that question unless MSU gets to it's second B1G Championship in three years. We could could get "no" answers prior to then.
2. Should a second Spartans quarterback have seen playing time against Indiana?
MSUSpartan76 (Follow him on M-Live)
Actually, no. Cook needed to solidify his position and gain additional confidence and experience. Now, in the Purdue game, Coach Dantonio needs to start giving another QB snaps. Hopefully as many as 1/3 of the snaps (ala Brian Hoyer).
ATownAndDown(Follow him on M-Live)
No, no, no. I know what Coach D said about playing a second QB when Cousins was a senior but that was different than this year. Regardless of how you see the QB race going in 2014 and 2015, Cook is going to be around for those seasons too. We are not playing for 2014 and 2015 right now. We are playing for this season and we need Cook to get as much work in and see as much as he can before we get in a tight contest. I can understand if it was 42-14 in the 4th, then its classy to get the starter out. But Cook needs those reps because the defenses of U of M, Nebraska, and NW (while have each had their own issues in their own right) are better than what we saw last week or will see over the next two weeks. Its one thing to have a QB rating of 150 against Indiana and its another to do so in Lincoln, Nebraska. Cook needs to be ready.
SpartanMan82 (See all of his posts here)
Yes, and it should have been Tyler O'Connor. At some point in that game, TOC needed some reps. Cook should be running the ball on designed keepers about ten times per game. Teams with running QBs need to have viable backups. TOC should have gotten at least three series in that game.
Not trying to revive a "quarterback controversy", just trying to avoid running into another one later. Remember what caused the problem the last two years was the under-playing of the backup QBs, Maxwell two years ago and Cook last year. TOC needs to finish this season with at least 50 pass attempts and at least 25 carries.
3. Did you observe any interesting developments, plays or story-lines from Saturday's game that may have gone largely unnoticed or lacked meaningful media focus?
SpartanMan82 (See all of his posts here)
The RJ Shelton touchdown run came off a "Jet Sweep", the first time we had run one of those in the game. We had "shown" Jet Sweep two or three previous plays, but didn't hand off to the Jet before that scoring play.
The Jet Sweep is a good change-of-pace (non-trick) play, and we should be running it three or four times each game. Good idea to set it up first, but several players can run it, as shown by the true freshman on Saturday. It has never resulted in a serious loss or turnover, and it almost always nets positive yards even when contained. It's a simple way to put pressure on a defense.
That said, we still need to run a simple play-action Counter Bootleg Pass Option play out of an I-formation in short-yardage situations outside of the red zone. That play would be MONEY.
MSUSpartan76 (Follow him on M-Live)
Actually yes. It starts last season. The 2012 offense was dysfunctional. That has been discussed ad nauseam. What was missed was the exact moment it began. I replayed the Boise St. game and saw something that is very interesting. The first drive, Maxwell and the offense did very well. They moved the ball steadily down the field and scored a TD. The second drive ended when Lippett bobbled the ball into the hands of a Bronco defender. That was the moment the offense started to "choke." Add to it the Lippett fumble in the 3rd quarter and the receivers started pressing to not make further mistakes. They started over thinking. That carried through the rest of the season and spilt into 2013. They kept choking by trying too hard and thinking too much.
Now I read that the receivers are having fun and watching them, they are relaxed and just playing football. Gone is the need to "prove" themselves. They are no longer self-inflicting needless stress and pressure on themselves to make big plays, to not make mistakes, etc.
ATownAndDown(Follow him on M-Live)
Local media does a pretty good job on picking up on story lines but I have noticed the play calling has some issues still. The last two games didn't exactly start off all that impressive for the offense and it was not until we ran the ball that things started to click. We had some red zone issues against Iowa because we got a little too cute once we got close to the goal line. There were some very similar issues in the play calling a few times against Indiana but we were bailed out by someone making a play. When I say getting cute, I am talking about end arounds and the wild cat formation type play calls. Against ND, Iowa and Indiana our bread and butter physical play was moving the ball. Then when we got close we decided to change things up for some reason. Force the other team to stop us when we are doing what we do best. Don't throw your second tier stuff out there and hope they are fooled both to open the game and in scoring situations.
I loved the successfully executed screen plays. I've been looking for that forever! Keep them coming - both inside and outside, RBs, WRs, TEs, FBs. Go crazy with it vs. Purdue.
NEXT "TRICK PLAY": The fake 1st half ending kneel down - pass into the flat (or a streak) to Langford and see if he can outrun everyone. No risk as long as it is a forward pass. Call it "Tiny Tim" after his hit song "Tip Toe Through the Tulips". It was "there" at the end of the first half vs Indiana.
4. Should MSU be ranked in the Top 25?
ATownAndDown(Follow him on M-Live)
I don't think MSU is top-25 material yet. And really what have we done to prove that we deserve that. I get the record thing but your record is just as much about who you beat as it is about who you lose to. Our only loss is to ND but our best win was against Iowa and that is not exactly a resume building win especially considering Iowa is going to have to beat OSU, Wisconsin, U of M, NW or Nebraska to make a bowl game this year. Indiana is a borderline bowl team too. WMU hasn't won a game yet. USF is 2-4 right now. And Youngstown State isn't even in the same division. So its tough for me to say that MSU deserves to be in the top-25 because they have beaten some pretty bad teams. Some solid wins against two more bad teams will go a ways but beating teams that are perceived as on MSU's level will solidify it in my mind.
SpartanMan82 (See all of his posts here)
Probably, but who cares? The rankings are a sham, and will be phased out during our lifetimes. Our current ranking is purely a function of our pre-season rank, and that was a blind and/or biased guess by some folks who aren't very bright.
Had MSU been a preseason Top Ten team, they would be in the Top Ten right now. Since they weren't, they aren't. Who cares?
These are the final years of college football before the real playoffs begin, probably about five to ten years from now. Anybody can vote for anybody in the meantime, but those votes will be rendered uninteresting and ultimately meaningless once the real playoffs are established.
MSUSpartan76 (Follow him on M-Live)
No and it really does not matter. Rankings never win games. Even after the Spartans manhandle the Boilermakers this Saturday, there will still be doubters. Even so, a 6-1 MSU might slip into the bottom of the top 25. But there will still be many who doubt MSU because they have played "nobody."
YES. MSU has established itself as the 3rd or 4th best team in the league. It says a lot about the conference if the 3rd/4th best team in the league with a nationally ranked defense is not in the top 25. If chUMps can be ranked 18 after the way they got to 5-0, I see no issue with being ranked 25 with the way MSU got to 5-1.
5. What do you think will happen when Indiana gets a shot at Michigan next weekend?
MSUSpartan76 (Follow him on M-Live)
Not meaning to be trite, there will be a football game. In that game, the Michigan defense will have its hands full. In that game, the Hoosier defense will have a chance to slow UM down enough to make the outcome of the game a coin toss. Both team will go into the game with things to prove. Whichever team goes in focussed, but not tense, will win. I expect the IU air attack will score its 4 TDs or maybe more. I expect the lack of a robust UM rushing attack will allow IU to stay in the game. It will come down to Gardner. If he remains the TO machine, IU wins. If not, we might see another exciting OT finish.
Going out on a limb, IU wins. Barely.
ATownAndDown(Follow him on M-Live)
Indiana gets cracked over the head by U of M. Its at home and U of M is markedly better under Hoke at home. U of M is a young team and young teams have a tendency to play down to competition and struggle a bit more on the road. Indiana has a nice offense that will move the ball on U of M but they have no defense. In the end, I see it as a similar score to that of our game with Indiana.
SpartanMan82 (See all of his posts here)
The Hoosiers will score repeatedly. So will the Wolverines. Bring your adding machines and calculators to keep up with the score. Could be another 67-65 donnybrook, like the Weasels had a few years ago against Illinois. Either team could win.
The over-under on Hoke's pre-game meal is FOUR DONUTS.
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1. Is Tom Izzo about to pop a vein in his neck, or what? Explain what we're seeing with all of the ferocious intensity from our favorite Coach.
2. The Spartans seem to be sputtering at times, yet they are matching long-standing team records and setting new ones almost every game. Will this team live up to its highest expectations?
3. Quick guess, who leaves early from MSU after this year?
Panelist Responses:
1. Is Tom Izzo about to pop a vein in his neck, or what? Explain what we're seeing with all of the ferocious intensity from our favorite Coach.
SpartanMan82 (Check out SM82's Basketball Posts)
I think people are making too big of a deal out of it. I know some people are revolted to see what they believe is a repugnant image, but I'm still seeing it as an aberration largely specific to Valentine, who he's known since birth. When you recruit a player as an assistant coach, then recruit his sons, the coach/player relationship is a little different. I don't think any of us can truly know how it's different, or how it feels to be different in that way, or any of it. Denzel's brother sits right behind the bench, and his Dad stepped down from high school coaching (after two consecutive state championships) largely to pay attention to his son at MSU. So I'm sure everybody in the Valentine/Izzo camp is on track with everything.
We can speculate as amateur psychologists about the motivations and fears of Tom Izzo, and how they all translate into what we've seen him like lately. Or we can just let it ride, likely to not see much of that exact same stuff again, for a variety of reasons. I choose to let it ride.
ATownAndDown (Follow A-Town on M-Live) I think Izzo's intensity comes from two places: frustration and motivation. This year's team plays a lot like a really good NBA team will. Those teams that seem to "turn it on" whenever they want to. The problem is they are not always on and almost seem like they are not in it. Then they turn it on and go for an 18-3 run. I think Izzo knows he has something special here with this group and the fact that they let teams hang around or they try to coast to wins, instead of coming out and just dominating the competition is frustrating (add in the injuries and lineup juggling and you have one frustrated coach). At the same time he doesn't want this team to fall too far into the trap thinking they can just go at anytime. We saw it against OSU. With 8 minutes to go they were in chill mode and when they tried to turn it on around 3 minutes, it wasn't there. He is pushing these guys as much as he can so they don't fall asleep at the wheel.
As Posted by Return2Glory on M-Live: return2glory | SpartanResource.com
Izzo has such a high balance in his emotional bank account with each player that it allows him take withdrawals and not get into the red (overdrawn). He makes so many deposits into their emotional bank account the withdrawals hardly matter.
Reader Response: kmak
That's a good way to put it. Many are missing the whole picture. Where were all the nay-sayers when Izzo was out giving Green an unbridled bear hug on the court after a play well-done? These kids know Izzo has there backs. We may see him yell and walk away, but what we don't always see is the compassionate conversation he takes the time to have in the locker room with his players after the game and give them a pat on the back or sometimes a bear hug.
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2. The Spartans seem to be sputtering at times, yet they are matching long-standing team records and setting new ones almost every game. Will this team live up to its highest expectations?
ATownAndDown (Follow A-Town on M-Live)
So much can go off kilter in college basketball. Come Tourney time, one loss means you are done. This team has the goods. It seemed like MSU always has a good balance where their are 2-3 guys that can push that 20 point area in any game and then there are a few others that don't surprise in double figures. This year Appling, Payne, or Harris can push 30 any given night. Dawson, Valentine, Trice and Kaminski have all scored 15 or more points in games this year. This team is a Championship caliber team. Its crazy to think about the injuries and bad breaks this group has gotten and they are still 17-1. Only 3 players have played in all 18 contests this year: Appling, Valentine and Schilling. And guys like Costello, Payne, Harris, Dawson and Trice have battled through illness or injury in a few of those contests they were in. If the team can get healthy and Izzo can do what Izzo seems to always do, this team is scary.
SpartanMan82 (Check out SM82's Basketball Posts)
They are certainly in position for everything other than the undefeated season. But the "highest expectation" is the National Championship, and those can no more be guaranteed in January than they can in March. So we'll have to see about that.
But most of the "sputtering" appears to have been part of the annual process of re-creating a new team. To have only one loss, and none in the conference after five games, puts MSU in the driver's seat as the other teams all play begin to each other.
If the Payne-to-Gain process pays dividends with a truly healthy player before too long, everything else seems to be falling into place for a strong February and beyond. The Costello mono-thing should gradually dissipate, as he first sat out for it six weeks ago. Harris seems quite functional and reports that his ankle is better every day. The injuries to Appling by definition will take time, but with time they will heal, as they are not chronic or stress-induced. (Appling suffered impact bruises to one side of his body from a fall he took on December 4.) In the meantime, other players are stepping in and trying to step up. If everybody is healthy and the team is at full strength when the finish-line starts coming into view, this team could reach any or all of its goals.
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3. Quick guess, who leaves early from MSU after this year?
SpartanMan82 (Check out SM82's Basketball Posts)
Everybody has been counting Harris as definitely gone, and understandably so, based on his apparent draft-rank status last year. But he hasn't been packing the stats recently, and I heard Jim Comparoni say that he "may" return, so I'll put Harris at 80% gone.
I've had my doubts about Dawson leaving early for some time, and his performance package doesn't look so darn draft-able right now. I'm guessing he stays, and I'm up to around 70% on that right now. There is still time for him to "make a run" with a mid-season uptick like Payne made last year. But he's on track to stay for his senior season.
If Dawson stays, gains motivation and focus like we've seen Payne do, and benefits from the increased freedom of his Senior year, MSU could remain a viable team next year. (It will be a tough comedown even with him, but without him, much harder.)
ATownAndDown (Follow A-Town on M-Live)
Harris. And even that might not be the best decision. Really this question should be "do you think either BJ or Harris will leave?" Harris is still highly regarded but he is going to slip a bit because this is now the second year that he has had injury issues. He also might slip a little more because he has had a propensity to disappear at times. Now that could be injury related but it doesn't help that outside of Valentine he has the lowest shooting percentage on the team of the guys in the regular rotation. He has also fallen in love with his outside shot. He is on pace to shoot as many 3's as he did last year within the next 7 games. And he is hitting over 10% less of those attempts. For a guy who is supposed to be a scorer, he is not having a strong showing this season.
BJ is improved over last year but he needs to experience a revolution to be catching any NBA eyes. Even if he does that he might be in the AP boat and better off coming back for a senior year. BJ has still has a tendency to not play 100% all the time. We have seen Izzo sit him because of his effort this year. And while BJ has shown some improvement in his offensive game he is not NBA ready. The guy is 6-6, 225 lbs. That makes him a 2 in the NBA and no one is putting a guy on their team that is a shooting guard that can't (or won't) put up the long ball. Even if you wanted him to be your 3, that is an issue because that swing spot has become the gold standard for the position you build around. Guys like LeBron, Durant, George and Carmelo, all are 3's. BJ can leap with those guys but he doesn't have the jumper or ability to create enough for himself for any team to see him as anything more than a bench guy.
So I think they should both stay but I think Harris is a strong lean toward leaving. NBA teams still draft based on what a guy could be, and not what he is, so someone with big dreams for what Harris could be will jump on him early and that is what you want as a player.
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Everybody who works on this web site believes in accountability. We believe that what people say do must be measured-up against a standard of Quality. That's why we created this web site in the first place, to hold the sports media accountable for all of the blather they propagate about their top-crush-of-all-time, the University of Michigan. We offer facts and viewpoints that counter, or even contradict, what we call the Michigan Mainstream Media Machine.
We don't make lots of game predictions here, just once in awhile, and usually only when it's about an MSU vs. UM game. So when we do so, we feel it's our responsibility to report back to you on how we did. And the truth is, this week we did quite well.
We published pre-game viewpoints from "MSUSpartan76", "ATownAndDown", "return2glory", and "SpartanMan82". Everybody, in their own way, called the game a "toss-up", despite the sports media tsunami predicting an overwhelming tidal-wave blowout by UM. Most would agree that a game literally decided on the last play, must have been a "tossup".
Here's a look back at what our authors said before the game was played:
UM has a special-teams advantage.Three field-goals, an 80-yard punt, and multiple big kick returns.
MSU Defense has advantage over UM Offense.Only 62 yards rushing, only 15 completed passes, 25% conversion-rate on 3rd/4th Downs, and only one run longer than 8 yards.
MSU Offense even with UM Defense.Nearly 400 yards of Total Offense, three touchdowns scored from scrimmage.
Wondered whether MSU would make it seem to UM like they were going to win, only to rev-it-up at the last second to snatch victory away from them ("little-brother" style).Golly, gee, look what happened at the end!
Said there was no way Dantonio would mock UM the way that Mike Hart mocked MSU, even if the same thing happened in favor of the Spartans.Dantonio complimented UM multiple times in post-game interviews and never claimed superiority over UM or "intent" to let game go down to the wire.
So while the Michigan Mainstream Media Machine was cranking out stories all week predicting the gloomy end of the Dantonio Era, we were keeping it real with our pre-game views. While crazy chUMps all over the Internet were spewing wild predictions of a vicious bloodbath, we sized up the game as a "toss-up", with either team about as likely to win as the other.
People like to call us "biased" for what we do,
but look at the record in this case.
Who was the "biased media" this week:
DumpTheChumps or the mainstream sports media?
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With the addition of 4-star WR Monty Madaris today - MSU has the top WR receiver class in the Big Ten (7th in Nation by Scout.com) and that's not counting transfer, DeAnthony Arnett (4-star recruit last year now with a year of experience after playing in every game during his freshman year in the SEC). Oh, and remember Tony Lippett? He is going back to wide receiver after showing great athleticism as a true freshman at corner back for the Spartans last year.
Did you know that this year's average "star ranking" is the second highest in the Dantonio era? [Rivals: 2012 = 3.11 is second to 2009 = 3.30. Scout: 2012 = 3.17 is second to 2011 = 3.19] (error corrected since post was first published) Take that tid-bit of data and add this: The combination of the thoroughness of this staff's recruiting process, their player evaluation skills, the emphasis on character and intelligence, recruiting for position need, selecting players that fit MSU's scheme, player skill development once on-campus, quality strength and conditioning, lack of player attrition (forcing all but one of last year's freshman to red-shirt in 2011) and successful development of team leadership is enough to close the gap with programs who have recruited, on average, higher rated players.
As always, check the Spartan links found at the bottom to find the headlines that grab you. No need to go surfing. It's all right here.
Q&A: Michigan State coach Mark Dantonio
February, 2, 2012
4:00 PM ET
By Adam Rittenberg, ESPN.com
After recording 11 victories in each of the past two seasons, Michigan State hoped to carry over the momentum to the recruiting trail. The Spartans on Wednesday signed a class headlined by standout skill players and added another Thursday morning in four-star receiver Monty Madaris. Along with the addition of wide receiver transfer DeAnthony Arnett, Michigan State has put itself in position to replace standouts like receivers B.J. Cunninghamand Keshawn Martin, and safety Trenton Robinson. The Spartans also faced increased competition in the region from Michigan and Ohio State, and talk of a Michigan State-Ohio State recruiting firestorm is building.
Michigan State's Mark Dantonio says his latest recruiting class is loaded with skill-position talent.ESPN.com caught up with Spartans coach Mark Dantonio on Thursday. Here are his thoughts about the class.
What were your top priorities in this class?
Mark Dantonio: We felt like we needed to go out and get a great class of skill players. Last year, we were pretty deep on our team, so we only (signed) two wide receivers and two defensive backs last year. We felt like we really needed to concentrate in those two areas, and I think we came away with a great class. We've got five wide receivers signed and four defensive backs, and a very skilled tailback [Nick Tompkins] who really can play any of those positions. He'll play tailback here off the start. We've got guys like Demetrious Cox who can play anywhere: tailback, slot receiver, safety, probably even corner. We've got guys like Jermaine Edmonson, who is coming in as a defensive back but can play wide receiver. Aaron Burbridge is another guy who can cross the realm and play corner, play wide receiver, tailback. He'll play wide receiver for us. Madaris, MacGarrett Kings, DeAnthony Arnett has to be included in this class, and he's a phenomenal player, one of the top wide receivers in the country last year.
It's a tremendous group, wide receiver especially. When you lose a B.J. Cunningham, Keshawn Martin and Keith Nichol, that's a lot of offense. Those guys will have an opportunity to play immediately. And on the defensive side, Ezra Robinson and Cox, Edmonson and Mark Meyers are guys that can tackle, play the ball in the deep part of the field, change direction very well, they run very well, they're very explosive players. All 10 of those guys are kick returner, punt returner guys.
I also think that because we lose [Kirk] Cousins, we needed to bring a quality quarterback into the program. We don't overload our football team with quarterbacks. We don't have six or seven guys on scholarship. We'll have three quarterbacks on scholarship next year, and Tyler O'Connor was an Elite 11 quarterback, a guy that has great mechanics, has the ability to run with it, he's big, he's very intelligent, he's got a great release and great arm strength. He's going to be a tremendous asset to this program as time goes on. And then we took three offensive linemen who are going to be able to play, and one defensive lineman in David Fennell. Two outstanding linebackers in [Jamal] Lyles and [Riley] Bullough, who are very, very good athletes and played a variety of positions. Fennell's a defensive tackle flying under the radar from Oregon, who just moved to the U.S. from Canada. He shows great punch. His dad is in the Hall of Fame in the CFL. The guy has great explosiveness, extremely strong, very quick, plays with a high motor. I think he'll be an outstanding player.
With the wide receivers you're losing, how many of the guys you're bringing in will stay at receiver and have a chance to play immediately?
MD: All of these guys are going to have a chance to play. We basically have five wide receivers on scholarship, so our numbers are low in that area, not just because we lose the three [starters], but we lose two backups as well. Edwin Baker going [to the NFL] hurts at the tailback position, so there's opportunity to play and play early. They're quality players. They're guys who we've either had in camp or watched play in person. They're big-time players, and they'll all have an opportunity to play. And there are some guys who might cross over and be pretty versatile as well. And on the defensive side, you can pretty much say the same thing. Jeremy Langford is going to go back to tailback, so it's going to open a possibility at corner. Tony Lippett's a guy we played at corner last year. He'll go back to wide receiver. So it was important to get a defensive back class as well.
I'll make this statement. I've been coaching for a long time, and I don't know I've been anyplace where we've recruited 10 quality athletes like this at the skill positions. I think they're excellent football players, and they all fit our identity, they fit our mold in terms of our chemistry. Great people with good values, all with the vision of being outstanding. I think Cox is a tremendous player.
Do you guys now have pipelines at defensive backs and wide receiver?
MD: I think we are. If you're good enough, you're going to play here. We only played one freshman [defensive back] last year, but the year before, our entire second unit was made up of freshmen. We've had to move people around a little bit, so there's opportunities for these guys, and they see themselves playing early in their careers. They also see the success that we're having. The other thing everyone has to realize is last year, we took seven defensive linemen. We redshirted every single incoming freshman last year except for one. So we're going to have about 40 freshmen in August camp. This is a very bright future at Michigan State. We've got some excellent young players, predominantly defensive players ... who would have played in the bowl game. We probably would have played six of them in the bowl game if they were eligible to play.
You mentioned the lineman from Oregon. How do you feel about the defensive tackles with Jerel [Worthy] moving on? Is it something you looked for in this class, or might look for in the junior college ranks?
MD: We looked more in terms of defensive end at the junior college route a little bit. We felt like we wanted to stay the course with our guys. We came down to the end on a couple guys that, if they come our way, maybe solidify that a little bit. But you've got to go back to last year. We recruited six defensive linemen and had a seventh transfer in from Vanderbilt, as an offensive [lineman] for them. He was a four-star player, James Kittredge. So we've got seven defensive linemen, and five of them are defensive tackles. So our numbers are good. We've got guys like Damon Knox and Joel Heath and Brandon Clemons and Matt Ramondo and Kittredge, those guys are all pushing about 280. We'll be fine there. Obviously, we're going to miss Jerel. You can't replace a guy who was first-team all-conference, a first-team All-American and maybe a first-round draft pick. But we've got guys coming, and I'm sure coach [Pat] Narduzzi will get those guys ready to play.
Mark, you've recruited the Midwest for a long time. Was there any different dynamic this year competing for recruits with some of the staff changes at Ohio State, and with Michigan's staff having a full year to recruit?
MD: I really don't think so. It's always difficult to recruit in the Midwest when you're surrounded. Michigan State has its own identity, but Michigan certainly and Notre Dame and Ohio State and Wisconsin and Iowa. We're right in the middle of all those guys. And usually when we want 'em, they want 'em. You can throw Penn State into that mix, and you have some teams coming up from the Southeastern Conference, so it's extremely competitive in terms of the guys you're going to get. But we're competing on a scale with those guys. We're very competitive with them, and this is a great opportunity for young people to look at, so we're going to get our guys.
Recruiting has accelerated. There's no question about that. With that said, you've got to get guys on your campus earlier, and usually those guys have to be within four or five hours of your campus. After that, they have to fly, or they're taking cross-country trips. It's so important you get players on your campus to see the place with a parent or a loved one, because when you come down the stretch, for a guy to make a visit like they used to, come in January on a visit by himself, if they have not been here before, the opportunity for you to get them to come to Michigan State or anyplace else goes down drastically.
Are you guys changing the types of players you're going after at all?
MD: Not really. We've always tried to look to see who's going to fit our program. Just because you can play corner at one institution doesn't mean you can play corner here based on how we play the corners. We're looking for a different type of player at times than maybe somebody else would. Doesn't mean it's right or it's wrong. We try and look for who's going to complement our football team. There's a foundation that's being laid here, there's good things happening. We're not to the end yet, and we want to continue to push forward, but the guys we've recruited have helped us win, there's no question about that. They've won. So we're taking the right guys. We have very little attrition on our football team, so consequently we have a smaller class. I don't think we've ever taken 25 guys. I think the biggest class has been maybe 21, 22. We make assessments based on guys who can play for us, in our schemes and fit our chemistry, our profile. I think we've done a great job with that. We've got some guys here who have been two-star players who are going to play in the NFL, there's no question.
Dantonio talks about the 2012 recruiting class below. A more detailed version is here along with another interview in text (different questions than the ESPN.com post above).
3 keys for Michigan State moving forward toward College Football Playoff
Oh, have you seen this one? Wikipedia fired Brady Hoke: